Transcript
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I started working when I was 13.
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Like, the option in our house was to work.
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Am I nervous?
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Am I uncomfortable?
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Hell yeah, but I'm so freaking excited from the energy that comes from it.
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I wanted to be able to, like, ask more questions and find the misfits and the outliers and uncover the stuff that we're not talking about, but we need to be one.
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Suicide that is related to work environments is too many.
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What is going on L&M family.
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I'm back and we got a good one for you, dr Colleen Sandrington, who I got to meet in person in Savannah.
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Shout out to Ms Megan for putting that Savannah in September thing together.
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We got to me.
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I got to sit right next to her and like feed off of her energy I love this little moniker Blue Collar Woman Wrapped in a PhD Package, so that makes me feel a little more comfortable.
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Ms Dr Colleen is a keynote speaker and she attacks, works on chews, on challenges, the hidden toll of workplace toxicity.
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So all my culture warriors out there, I think this conversation is going to resonate with you and I know that I'm going to learn a little bit.
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And if you're new here, this is the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it.
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I'm Jesse and let's get to know Dr Colleen.
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Dr Colleen, how are you doing?
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I'm doing great.
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Yes.
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I can't complain.
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It's Halloween.
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I hope that's okay to say that, but it's one of my favorite days out of the entire year.
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I love the month of October, so I'm doing great today.
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So, okay, what are your thoughts If you had to take a pick between Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas?
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What's your order?
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One, two, three.
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Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas.
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And what's your order?
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One, two, three.
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Literally exactly how you just said them Halloween, thanksgiving and Christmas.
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You said them perfect, I love them in the order that they are oh nice.
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And is it the dress up about Halloween?
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The candy?
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What is it that gets you excited?
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So for me it is definitely great memories as a kid, trick-or-treating, and then as an adult it is fall.
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To me October is the best month.
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Everywhere in the world it is the best month the colors, the temperature, so that.
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And then I love the decorations.
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I decorate inside my house so I can enjoy the decorations.
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What good are they outside if I can't see them?
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Ah, yes, I super like that, okay, okay.
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Yeah, that's how I would answer it.
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Yeah, what about you?
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Yeah, I love.
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I'm going to say Thanksgiving, then Halloween, then Christmas.
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Thanksgiving is because of the food, right, like I could just gorge and gorge and eat delicious stuff everywhere I go, and in San Antonio it's like tamales season, right?
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So tamales galore everywhere.
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That's not to say I can't get them all year round, but during that Thanksgiving season it feels like that's when a lot of people make them at home and so I get to go and scab and eat somebody's delicious protein bars they're known as protein bars now.
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I didn't know that.
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Yeah yeah, it's a joke.
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Right Like they're.
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They're not necessarily a protein bar.
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They're a lot of fat and cholesterol.
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Right, right, but if you call it a protein bar, maybe it qualifies.
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So, doctor, you are a doctor, like official PhD, peer-reviewed publications and all kinds of really pretty fancy stuff.
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No joke, serious business.
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What are the secrets that people don't know about you?
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But they should?
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So thank you for calling out the PhD.
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I really appreciate that.
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That was hard-ass work, but I signed up for it myself.
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No one told me that I had to do it, so I got to feel my nerdy brain, which I think that's maybe one of the secrets is I'm like total nerd in a good way, right, like I love to ask questions, peel the layer of the onion back as many times as I can, and that's why I got a PhD.
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I wanted to be able to like ask more questions and find the misfits and the outliers and uncover the stuff that we're not talking about.
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But we need to be.
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So that's one thing.
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The other thing I'll say I'm originally from Cleveland Ohio, so that's why I call myself that blue collar woman wrapped in a PhD package.
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I am a lunch pail city kid, like that is.
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My parents owned a sheet metal shop growing up.
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As I was growing up, they ran it for 30 years, so I love the smell of a good shop.
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Take me into a Home Depot any day of the week.
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Yeah, so from Cleveland Ohio, but live in Atlanta, georgia.
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I'm trying to think what else?
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What other kind of fun things?
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I'm a runner, I talk health and wellbeing.
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I live it, I breathe it.
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It's like it's my thing.
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So I'm a runner.
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I've run 17 marathons.
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Just crossed the finish line of my 17th in Hartford, connecticut, a couple of weeks ago.
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Congratulations.
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Yeah, and then the last thing that I'll say is I am super focused on mental health, and that's because that I have a story.
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I think many of us have a story, and I think, when I think about the work that I'm really trying to lean into when it comes to organizations is because my story has roots in my family, and I think we all do in some way, and so that's the kind of last thing that I'll share, unless you want me to, unless you want to peel the layer of the onion back.
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Oh, I'm going to peel away, sister, you've got to believe.
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So I've run a few marathons myself.
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I'm not at 17.
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I've done six.
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I don't have a PhD, but I I dated um, an amazing human being who worked and earned her EDD.
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So I know, or I have a sense of the tenacity and endurance it takes to run a marathon and get the PhD.
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Now that is just through, like observation.
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I had nothing, like I didn't do any of the damn work, but I could see the commitment and sacrifice.
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Now, and so my question is when did that tenacity and commitment to things like marathon running and earning a PhD, when did you first become aware of that Option in our house was to work right?
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So, as I'm saying, this out loud.
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Maybe that's it, but when I think about, like, when I did have to like officially attach a resume to something or, sorry, a cover letter to a resume, my cover letter always talked about my tenacity.
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I always said I have this level of tenacity.
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I don't know if I can actually like point to something, but I think that's part of the upbringing right.
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I can actually like point to something, but I think that's part of the upbringing right.
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My roots was raised by baby boomer parents and, yeah, our option was to work when we turned 13, like that was the option, and so I think the answer really does wrap itself around all the things that we know our environment influences us for in regards to what we become.
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I would say, when I think about who my parents are, what they taught me.
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I mean they were both business owners together.
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The option was to just go and figure it out.
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And I imagine if they were both business owners, you got to watch them like work during the day and then all the work that happens like outside of the office in terms of managing the business and the household and everything else Like you hear people nowadays talking about passive income and this sort of thing but you don't really understand like it's all work.
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It all works it just looks different.
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Yes, exactly, and like that, passive income doesn't just come.
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I know it's work.
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If it's work, then it makes it happen, Right?
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Yes, oh, my goodness, so okay.
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So, PhD, what was your field of study?
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Or what was the dissertation that you produced and had to defend?
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What was that about?
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Before we get to that, we are going to do the L&M family member shout out and I got one that I'm excited about.
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It kind of makes me blush a little bit, but this one goes to Mr Ben.
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Mr Ben went out of his way to leave this comment and he said I noticed a few posts you made about haters and wanted to tell you I'm a Jesse Hernandez fan.
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You may not hear that enough.
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I've seen your work, lived your backstory and believe in you and your message.
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It's easy to get mixed up sometimes, but I know what you can do and I'm thrilled to watch you do it Best.
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Regards Ben.
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So Ben, thank you so much for taking the time to leave such a thoughtful note.
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And folks out there, L&M family you know any creators at all?
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I promise you if you leave a comment, you will make their day.
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It is super, super meaningful because very few people do that.
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And if you take the time to leave a review, leave a comment or whatever for me, I'm going to take the opportunity to highlight you on future podcast interviews.
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So again, let's keep doing the recognition and the support.
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So my dissertation, what I am all about policy at work and not in policies that penalize people.
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Policy gets such a bad rap, but we are not talking about the policies that remove barriers for people to then do something better for themselves.
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Okay, so I researched and defended physical activity policies in the workplace, specifically giving individuals at minimum 30 minutes out of their workday.
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No penalty to work hours, also, not at lunch.
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This was in addition to lunch and whatever breaks they had to go and move.
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And because it's a PhD, you frame it around something.
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So I framed it around creating this.
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Again, it's removing barriers.
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If I only have 30 minutes, then I framed it around walk routes that were already mapped outside and broke it down by 10 minute increments, 15 minute increments and 30 minute increments, so that if I only had 10 minutes, I could run outside and do that Now.
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The other thing, though, is I did my, even though I'm here in Atlanta.
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When I did my PhD, I got so many no's because I wanted a.
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I mean, I needed a real company to do what to do this.
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And everybody said no, they're like it's going to cost me all this money, Like my people aren't going to be doing, they're not going to be working.
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The best part was I had a law firm, billable hours a law firm, so they were out of Cleveland, and it was just a reminder of you have to take into account elements, winter, so you also then create walk routes inside the company.
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You can do that, we can do that everywhere.
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So, anyways, that's what I researched, and the whole point was to see does that increase individuals' level of physical activity, productivity, all that good stuff.
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So it was pretty successful.
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It's published.
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Nice Congratulations Wow.
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It's a big policy person.
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Because that is how when we remove the barriers for people, that is how they then walk into that choice we make it the easy choice period.
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Yes, so, like we said, the policies are the parameters of the boundaries, constraints, whatever word you want to plug in that set the conditions for people to grow or shrink in, would you agree?
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Absolutely.
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It can go both ways, absolutely.
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Yeah, yeah, because I've been in a few situations where it was all about shrinkage and that was not part.
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Right.
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So that's bad policy, negative.
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We only want positive policies when it comes to bettering the workplace, we don't want to penalize, we want it to be a positive.
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Oh, my goodness.
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Okay, so 13 years old.
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For folks out there that don't have the numbers one and nine before their year of their birth, we used to have to go to the business and fill out applications.
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You remember that, dr Colleen?
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Yes, although that is not how I got my job, but yes, oh, how did you do it then?
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So after church, we went into this bakery and there was a woman that I or a girl, I guess at the time, cause I was 13 that was working there, that went to my high school, and my mom was like, oh, are you guys hiring she needs a job?
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And they were like yes, we are, I'll see you on Tuesday.
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That was everything.
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After that, though, I did write the paper application.
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Would you credit those experiences to triggering or planting the seeds of curiosity in your head around organizational health and these types of situations that maybe are ignored, overlooked or under misunderstood in terms of culture?
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So, yeah, so, and, of course, interrupt me if you feel like I'm not answering the question, but I would 100% point it back to my parents.
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Ah, because of what I watched, because of how I watched my parents, mostly my dad and his health and the impact that it had on him Okay.
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So I was five years old when they opened up this business.
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They start my dad and my grandfather went in on it together, mostly because my grandfather had just lost his job.
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He only had about five years left to work.
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This was a great opportunity for him to finally open up this business that he always wanted to do with my dad.
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So, going into it, they knew that he was only going to be there for a short time, so, fast forward that time comes, where my grandfather is transitioning out really more so, like the day came.
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Yeah, my dad was, cause he was a sheet metal worker so he would handle the guys outside and all that stuff, but he was doing some internal office work.
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But in hindsight he'll tell you it wasn't enough right, because what happened was when that baton was fully passed on.
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He was running the business the way my grandfather was, not the way he could handle, and as a result of that and I share this in this keynote speech, that I do, but as a result of the stress and the pressure.
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One, he's a man.
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I mean we have to call it what it is right.
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Men and women, we are raised with just different.
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Man.
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I mean we have to call it what it is right Men and women, we are raised with just different.
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We're just raised different, right.
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And so because not only is he a man, he has a wife, three kids, I have two sisters.
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He was so overwhelmed from trying to transition fully that he planned on taking his life one day, and instead he drove himself to the hospital.
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And so that's how I learned about the toll that the work the environment can have on a human, so that I would say that, and then I would even fast forward at this point in time.
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Now I'm, I am actually like in college and deciding my major.
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I'll never forget my dad was 48 and finally, things were running on his own.
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Him and my mom had their own flow.
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This was years later, and I'll never forget saying to him dad, you are going to have a heart attack.
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You are so stressed out.
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Something had shifted in the business.
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He was so stressed out.
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Sure enough, he had a heart attack, he's retired and all the things right.
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But in hindsight, work can be, at the end of the day, the work is the work.
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The sheet metal work was the sheet metal work.
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We're not going to change that work ever.
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We're not going to change construct.
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We can't change the work, but we can change the way that we treat ourselves others.
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So it's a long-winded way to say that I do believe that those are the things that really kind of nudged me along my path.
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Yeah, it's obvious to me If you see your dad, of all people you see every day suffering and struggling and fighting, and, just like you said, the sheep, like people, ask me all the time what do you think is the hardest trade?
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None of them, it's all the same stuff.
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Nobody's doing anything like magical.
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We connect things together and put them up in a certain order.
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That's not the hard part.
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Physically, there's some toll.
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The part that, like, really is difficult is the human part, right, the way we treat ourselves about the pressures and stuff that are within the work and the way we treat others with regard to the pressure, pressures and stresses of the work.
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And so you got to see that impacting your dad directly, so much so that he was willing to end his life and he didn't.
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So thank goodness for that.
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But then you predicted a heart attack and he had a heart attack which is like this Unfortunately, this is not a rare story, except that he didn't like he drove himself to the hospital.
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That's kind of rare.
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But the fact that the work itself, or the pressures of the work, of the role and responsibility that he had, made life intolerable for him, that is not an uncommon story, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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I mean one of the things when I look at the stuff that I taught the stuff hello.
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I could probably use better language than that.
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But when I look at what I talk about in regards to toxic work environments and what is actually like research has told us will exacerbate anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts and suicides.
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One of them is long working hours, those high demand there is an actual number around how many hours.
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And so when I always look at that one and I think, yeah, I mean dad.
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I would see him wake up at four o'clock in the morning to go to one of the job sites, get home at 11.
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I don't know what time he's, I don't know when he slept.
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Right, and that was every day for weeks and months on end.
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Until he had that crisis and realized this business is running me.
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I cannot run it this way.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So what would you say to the folks that are saying, well, yeah, but that's him running his business.
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I'm an employee and I don't have the autonomy to change my situation.
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:52.041
What could they do?
00:18:53.124 --> 00:18:56.951
So I do believe I'm going to answer this with an ant.
00:18:56.951 --> 00:19:03.648
Okay, cause I want to say this out loud boots on the ground pains me until there's no end.
00:19:03.648 --> 00:19:17.608
Boots on the ground in regards to advocating like the employee actually having to push upstream pains me until there is no tomorrow, because this is the business owner's responsibility to set that period right.
00:19:17.608 --> 00:19:23.163
Yeah, but as an employee, I do have things that I can still take control of.
00:19:23.183 --> 00:19:35.236
I do have things that I can still take control of, and those to me are things like if I do have an opportunity to leave and find another job, look for something that has predictable working hours.
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:51.095
So, in other words, when I think about summers here in Atlanta and I think about my husband who runs a construction business down here, we know summers, because of the way the weather is, are going to be extremely long or the days are going to be extremely long, but we know what the working hours are.
00:19:51.115 --> 00:19:54.817
We're always going to start early because of the heat right, and end early day.
00:19:54.817 --> 00:20:06.453
We know Friday is always going to be a detailed job day because everyone's exhausted, so it's going to be an easy day because we're also worried about like safety and things like that.
00:20:06.453 --> 00:20:34.861
So to me, even if you're inside your current company that you're working for, you can ask those things, you can push and say, hey, I risk although I want to use again saying, and even though you can ask the boss that there may come with the negative outcome of well, you can get out of here, right, I don't want to dismiss that that sadly, sometimes the option is we can't speak, but I do believe that there's an opportunity to advocate for that, not just by yourself but with those around you.
00:20:35.663 --> 00:20:37.027
Sure, absolutely.
00:20:37.326 --> 00:20:39.633
A boss does not want to see the full crew walk off the job.
00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:41.400
Not at all.
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:43.840
Well, and I agree with you on both ends.
00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:52.144
Yes, decision makers within organizations, they got to do better and we can vote with our feet.
00:20:52.144 --> 00:20:55.285
And I understand how scary that is.
00:20:55.285 --> 00:20:57.445
Well, maybe I don't, because I'm a little crazy.
00:20:57.445 --> 00:20:57.625
Right?
00:20:57.625 --> 00:20:59.287
If I don't like the way I'm being treated, I'm out.
