Transcript
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I was actually flat broke.
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I was tens of thousands of dollars in debt, so I really didn't see the mowing business as the thing that was going to make me wealthy or enough to be able to do my research.
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But I didn't know how to do anything else.
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I just kept on growing it.
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I started off mowing lawns and doing gardens.
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I realised I could actually make more money, at least in the short term, by building up and selling lawn mowing rounds.
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So I made a practice of that, and then I was hiring subcontractors to work how to do it, and I had to work out how to sell these lawn mowing rounds.
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And that was quite a struggle too, because I wasn't I'm not very, very good with people.
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I didn't have great people what is going on l&m family.
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We're back and this time I have like an ultra, ultra awesome guest, mr Jim Penman, out of Australia.
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I think I got that right.
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I know there's a comment there about the Southern Hemisphere.
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Jim is one of Australia's most iconic entrepreneurs.
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He's got some time, he's been at it for a while.
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He's the founder of the largest franchising chain in the Southern hemisphere, which is kind of a big deal, and one of the things that caught my attention after we made the connection to have the conversation, looked at your YouTube channel and it's Jim's group and some of the chains I think the chains that are like performing or growing exponentially is Jim's cleaning, jim's mowing, jim's dog wash and so like.
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The continuity is so simple and clear and I also got to listen to some training.
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So I think there's a whole world of stuff that we're going to get to hear from Mr Jim.
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And so, if you're new here, I'm Jesse, you're listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast and we're about to learn about the sacrifices and the awakenings that Jim has had on his path to success.
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Mr Jim, how are you?
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Sir, I'm great Good to be here, likewise, so it's 7 am early in the morning on your side and you're in the future, because today it's Monday here in San Antonio and I guess it's Tuesday for you.
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Yes, yeah, that's right.
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It's Charlie with the future.
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So you've picked up some tricks along the way in your career.
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I listed some high points in the introduction, but I'm curious, jim what are the things that people need to know about you?
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That is very difficult, those hidden gems that you don't always get a chance to share with folks.
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I think one of the chief things I like people to understand is the potential for the service industry.
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People are very obsessed with high tech these days and the Internet and those kind of things all of which are very useful but people neglect some of the oldest jobs around, the basic jobs like cleaning and gardening and looking after dogs and so forth, because it's actually a huge part of the economy and I was very lucky to get into that.
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When my academic career blew up, I turned my part-time gardening mowing business into a full-time and it turned out to be a very good business decision.
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All right.
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So what is it?
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What was it about the service industries, the day-to-day real life stuff, that drew you in?
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How did it capture your attention?
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Well, originally, it was my student job.
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I was doing a PhD in history, which took me, with everything else, about 10 years.
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I was an endless student and I like to work all the time, but I also, you, get a bit tired of just being indoors.
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So I thought a great job is to be outdoors gardening, and I can also make much better money than I could working for somebody else.
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Even back in 40s or 45 years ago I could do a lawn for five bucks and that took me half an hour.
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But you know, this was good money.
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So I was making 10 bucks an hour at a time when a job might get me three or four bucks an hour.
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So it was outside, physical love, being outside with nature and make pretty good money.
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So that's basically what it was.
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And then in 1982 I finished my studies and I really had no hope for academic post or career, so I thought, well, it's about anything I know.
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So I turned it into a business, okay.
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So you dedicated a significant part of your life into following the academic route and did I hear you correctly Like?
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You got to that end of that run and said wait a minute.
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What am I going to do now?
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Is that?
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How close am I?
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I always thought I'd be an academic, I would develop some theory and a way of looking at society, of history and so forth that I thought was pretty powerful.
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But I couldn't prove it, and the problem too was that my theory was all leading me into things like biology and genetics and so forth, like that which I had no expertise in because my degree was in history.
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So part of the idea I needed to work out a way to become rich enough to be able to support my research project.
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So that's how I had to turn my gardening business into something a little bit bigger.
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Ah, okay, so this theory that you're working on and I think you've produced some work on it since am I correct?
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That's right, yes.
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I have.
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I call it understanding history through biological mechanisms.
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Got it.
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Got it Beautiful.
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And so you came to a point said son of a gun.
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There's this thing.
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I don't have the resources to like actualize that currently, but there's another way I can build the resources to get there.
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Is that an oversimplification?
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That's exactly right.
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I didn't know how to do anything else, but lucky to stumble on a business.
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See, I like being outside.
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I'm that kind of person.
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Even today I've got a farm and I go out there and dig potatoes and stuff.
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I enjoy that kind of stuff.
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So it wasn't a difficult thing to do.
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It's a fun job and the service industry is fantastic.
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I mean, you make very good money, you start with almost nothing and you can go anywhere absolutely so.
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I began my working career as a plumber's apprentice.
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My dad's a plumber.
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I spent, we'll just say, over 20 years on the plumbing side of the business, got my journeyman license and all those other things, and only until recently I figured out like man I think I could build something for myself, and I'm not even in the service industry per se, but the skills that I built from fixing things, installing things, constructing things it's exactly those lessons you learn of taking your wherewithal, some information, some tools and material and creating something.
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That's what I apply in my business today.
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So I'm not doing anything new.
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You've been doing it for a while now.
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I recognize that you started earning a living through doing service-based business, but it's matured quite a bit since then.
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Right, I mean you.
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I've caught some of your lessons around customer service and building a business and so forth.
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And so in that realm of when you started generating income through delivering services and then growing your first franchise and expanding and starting to teach people, what was that path like?
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Well, it wasn't really a straight goal At the time.
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I started doing this, back in 1992, I went full time and I had no money.
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I was actually flat broke.
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I was tens of thousands of dollars in debt.
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So I really didn't see the mowing business as the thing that was going to make me wealthy or enough to be able to do my research.
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But I didn't know how to do anything else.
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I just kept on growing it.
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I started off mowing lawns and doing gardens.
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I realised I could actually make more money, at least in the short term, by building up and selling lawn mowing grounds.
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So I made a practice of that.
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And then I was hiring subcontractors to work how to do it.
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And then I had to work out how to sell these lawn mowing grounds.
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And that was quite a struggle too, because I wasn't I'm not very, very good with people.
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I didn't have great people skills.
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My wife says I've got borderline asperger's.
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So that was a challenge but.
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I didn't know how to do that and I hadn't learned how to improve my own methods of service and so forth.
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And then what actually happened was that in the 80s I was having this little business with building up and selling lawn mowing.
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I said I was sort of got out of debt and bought a house and stuff.
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So I was doing okay.
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And then this company called VIP came to Melbourne and they were interstate and they were franchising and these guys had 250 franchisees and they actually terrified me.
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I thought they'd crush me.
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I actually offered to join forces with them.
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I said, look, I'll just help to build you guys.
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And they said, oh well, I'm not interested in that.
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So I thought, well, I'll find out what they're doing.
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So I actually basically crashed the franchising exploit that year 1998, and went up to the stand and said I'm very interested in VIP, can you tell me about it?
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Didn't know who I was, so he told me.
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And then the state manager came in and said that's Jim Penman, don't tell them anything else.
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So they kicked me off the fan.
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So I went away and I thought, well, okay, there's some good ideas here, there's some good principles here, but maybe I could do something that might work better for franchisees.
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That's my idea.
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If I can make my franchisees into raving fans, I'll be successful, maybe just survive this onslaught.
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I wasn't thinking of beating them, so I got some lawyers together.
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It took me nine months.
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I spent nine months arguing with lawyers, basically, and they said to me your franchise system is too, you're being too nice, you're giving people too much.
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And I said, no, I want a system that I want to join.
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And so then in 1999, about June, signed my first franchisee.
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Somebody asked me at that time they said if it goes well, how many do you think you might have one day?
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And I said, well, if it really goes well, maybe one day I could have as many as 100.
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That was funny to say right at the beginning, and I still thought this wasn't the thing that was going to make me giving the resources I needed for my research, but it was surprisingly successful.
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By the end of the first year, I had about 60, and I thought, wow, this is interesting.
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And then people started coming from interstate and wanted to be part of it and I thought, wow, this is strange.
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And I had a secret weapon, though this is the one thing that really exemplified my approach when I was selling lawnmower grounds.
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I was a lousy salesman but I had a simple method.
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Every time somebody dealt with me I did everything possible to make them successful and then when they started, I took their name and I wrote it on a bit of black textile and a bit of white card and I put it behind me and that was my references.
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So when anybody interested in the lawn mowing ground I'd say listen, okay, if you want to know anything about the way I do it, ring any of these guys.
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There was about 100 of them and they would say Jim is great, did what he said, looked after me, gave me advice, best person to deal with.
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So when I started franchising, I did the same thing.
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I'd give a list of all my franchisees with their phone numbers and I gave it to everybody.
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And people would come to me and say why would I buy from you?
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You're running it from a basement.
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This is company VIP.
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Well, much better established.
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And I said all right, we're different in different ways.
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I wasn't bagging them, but here's a list of my franchisees.
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I want you to go and ring them as many as possible and then you go and get their list.
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And I knew they wouldn't provide a list because they couldn't do it and people would ring my list and say Jim was great.
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Jim did what he said.
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He looked after me, he's got lots of work.
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He's always there.
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He always asks for queries, gives me advice, runs meetings.
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He's a great guy.
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So that's how it happened.
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So I started to grow and it just surprised me.
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Actually, it amazed me In the beginning.
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I didn't even think this could possibly work that well, but it just gradually dawned on me hey, I've got something pretty good here.
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You know this because you've lived it 20 times over.
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What I have, what I envision not just me, like the L&M family out there.
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You said it.
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You said, if things go really well, maybe 100.
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You've exceeded that many times over.
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And I feel like when we're operating in service to others, sharing our gifts and talents in service to other human beings, the potential of growth is.
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It's limitless, like it is beyond whatever we can calculate at the moment.
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And as we continue forward, it continues to expand.
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Does that sound like hogwash to you or what do you think?
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And we want to give the shout out to our LNM family member who went out of their way to leave us an awesome comment, awesome review.
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This one comes from Ms Sanaz.
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She dropped this one on the YouTube and she says I want to thank you and your team for teaching us everything that no school does.
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Your content is a gift to everyone who is seeking ways to success.
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And it's not just my content, it's really the content from our guests here.
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It's true.
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Look, everything's about service, jesse.
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Being successful as a gardener, as a lawnmower contractor, was about looking after my customers really well, and I was fanatic about customer service.
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I just hate to let anybody down.
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I hate to do less than a perfect job.
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I was one of the first contractors in Australia back in the 70s as a student, to have a brush cutter.
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They called me there with the nylon cord that spins around and cuts the edges, because it used to frustrate me that I couldn't get a perfect, every edge perfect.
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So as soon as I saw this device I just bought one straight away so I could do all around the trees and the retaining walls, all the perfect edges, and then I could get the cracks from the grass from the cracks.
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So I really worked to make my customers into raving fans.
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And then I found it easy because I picked up regular customers and I got referrals and I could make good money.
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Now the same principle with franchising.
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I did everything possible to make my franchisees into fans, to make them as positive, and never stop thinking about ways.
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I give my direct phone number and email address to every franchisee at training.
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I did it at course just yesterday in the opening course I wrote it up on the board.
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I said you contact me anytime daytime, evenings, weekends, public holidays, I don't care.
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There's a franchisee who rang me on Christmas Day just to wish me happy Christmas, but he's allowed.
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There you go.
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Five and a half thousand people have my direct number.
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The only thing is they're told you mustn't give it to anybody else.
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So I don't want my number getting out there, just to you guys.
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And if anybody tries to ring me, you guys got no right.
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I'm pretty short with them.
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So that's kind of dedication and I'm endlessly every day thinking how can I help my franchisees to do better.
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And the harder you do that, the more successful you are.
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Oh, I love it.
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So do you feel like your commitment to and I'm going to say obsessive commitment, in a healthy way to delivering the best service is what helped you balance out not being a people person?
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yeah, yeah, maybe.
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Maybe it's an attraction, because if I was a great salesperson I could just be charismatic people to listen to me.
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But isn't some lousy sales.
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You gotta do something else, don't you?
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no, I love it.
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I I think it's an important thing.
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I think folks out out there that you don't have to be here's what they want to make clear.
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You don't have to be an entrepreneur or a franchisee to learn how to serve the person in front of you in an unforgettable way.
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We get to do that every day at the gas station, with our family members, with our colleagues at work, and when we serve them in a manner that is, it's way, abnormal, because the majority of folks is very passive, very superficial, there's no deep connection, there's no real listening, and so it works in the personal space, professional space, and if you're entertaining the idea of entrepreneurship, you your proof, like big, gigantic proof, of the high value that it brings.
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Now I think I'm hearing a tone.
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The mistake people make is they think of it in terms of money.
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You never put the money first.
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You put the people you're dealing with first.
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See, we made decisions in the beginning.
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I wasn't ever going to sell a franchise to somebody that I didn't have pretty good confidence were going to succeed.
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It's actually one of the worst things you can do in gyms is to sell a franchise to somebody you've got reason to think might fail, and at the beginning I thought that was an idea that would hold me from growing.
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But I only later realized it was actually driving success, because by knocking out the people that weren't succeeding, I want to take them out in the road.
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It had to be trial before they can get a franchise.
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We still do that and you don't get a franchise.
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And that's not really in the beginning of business decision.
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It's a moral decision.
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It's the idea that we sold people okay.
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Okay, I think that's super powerful.
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I want to dig into that some more.
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So this is a moral decision.
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I can sell anybody a franchise, but not everyone is prepared or equipped to run a franchise.
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So then I'm faced with a decision Do I sell it to them or not?
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And so here's my first question is this not?
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And so here's my first question is this what are some of the signals that call to you to say this may not be the best decision?
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for them?
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Okay, sometimes it's demographics.
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Okay, kim, a case a franchise that I heard was about to be sold to somebody.
00:17:22.875 --> 00:17:24.659
I spoke to the mother.
00:17:24.659 --> 00:17:35.536
She had a problem with the contract, which is why she contacted me, and I found out that she was buying a franchise on behalf of her son, who was in his early 20s and he couldn't find a job.
00:17:35.536 --> 00:17:38.974
And I said Matt it's completely out.
00:17:39.505 --> 00:17:43.656
Your son has no chance of success with that kind of attitude.
00:17:43.656 --> 00:17:45.310
She was actually very distressed.
00:17:45.310 --> 00:17:47.232
She said to me oh look, I wish I hadn't rung you.
00:17:47.232 --> 00:17:48.550
And I said it's jolly good you did.
00:17:48.550 --> 00:17:50.891
But she said what does he do?
00:17:50.891 --> 00:17:51.733
He can't even go to a job.
00:17:51.733 --> 00:18:01.829
I said okay, why don't I get him some work with a couple of local franchisees in his area who had more than enough work looking for employees, went out on the road with them, absolutely them, absolutely hopeless.
00:18:01.829 --> 00:18:08.057
Now the franchisor who did that came up for renewal shortly afterwards and I said to him you are not renewing.
00:18:08.057 --> 00:18:11.540
That was an appalling thing to do To put somebody on.
00:18:16.585 --> 00:18:17.587
You must have known Now he sold his business.
00:18:17.587 --> 00:18:18.891
He wasn't confiscated, but I would not renew his business.
00:18:18.891 --> 00:18:22.487
So to sell a franchise to somebody who doesn't have what it takes, that's one sort of thing to look at.
00:18:22.487 --> 00:18:28.505
Other things to look at is actually taking somebody up in the road is one of the best things I've recently put in a policy.
00:18:28.505 --> 00:18:30.532
I said I don't for my contracts department.
00:18:30.532 --> 00:18:36.311
You cannot sign anybody unless you get a written report from somebody who's gone out with them in the field.
