Transcript
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The most impactful thing I've ever seen is, all of a sudden you're looking around at your organization identifying who the next leaders are going to be and then pushing them outside of their comfort zone and having them explore opportunity they never even fathomed.
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And all of a sudden you look two, three years down the road and these people are in management positions where they were doing some clerical function before, are in management positions where they were doing some clerical function before, and it's just because they have the initiative and the drive and the attitude to go out there each and every day and succeed and get the job done.
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What is going on?
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L&m family.
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I got a special friend that I get to introduce to you today from San Antonio.
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Well, I don't know if he's from San Antonio, but I met him in San Antonio.
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We've connected a few times here in the Deuce Dime.
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His name is Mr Brett Bartley and he's a baller.
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He has massive experience in growing the Gibson Plumbing Company to become one of the largest plumbing organizations in Texas and that's saying a lot because you know everything's bigger in Texas.
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He grew sales from 20 million to over 112 million annual revenue and all you entrepreneurs out there you know those are big numbers and that takes a pretty robust system to have it be a recurring situation.
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And he did it like a magical transition, which I'm really interested in, going from hourly pay to production-based pay, and I'm going to see if I can pull any nuggets out of that.
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We met because he was a founding member of the TCCI, which is Texan Construction Career Initiative and a San Antonio construction career fair that has hosts and has hosted thousands of students over the years high school students, introducing them to careers in the trades.
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He's a licensed CPA in the state of Texas, father of two, two beautiful young ladies, and I didn't know this until I read the bio.
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He's a former member of the University of Houston baseball team, so I'm a former baseball burnout.
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So I think we'll touch on that a little bit.
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And now on to Mr Brett Bartley.
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Mr Brett, how you doing, my friend?
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I'm doing great.
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Jeffy.
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How are you buddy?
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Oh man, I'm having fun here.
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I don't know, it's August and I was whining a little bit about how warm it was out and I'm like, well, wait a minute, it's August, it's supposed to be this warm right now.
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Hey and Leith, they're getting rain this year Because in years past, 90 days of pain, no rain, oh yeah 90 days of pain and 15, 20 plus days of triple digits.
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So hopefully we won't see that this year, but it's a pretty big year.
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So you and I reconnected not too long ago and you've made a transition recently in your career.
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Yeah, that's right.
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That's right.
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Yeah, I went from running Gibson Plumbing Company and the owner and I parted ways about a year ago to now becoming a fractional CFO.
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Just by happenstance.
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I kind of lucked into it.
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A member company of a peer group I was a part of they needed some financial help and knew my background on the finance side and they reached out and one thing led to another and I've grown the business.
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I've got three clients looking to bring on more and looking to grow.
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Man phenomenal.
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The reason I say phenomenal is having been playing around on my end trying to start my own business.
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I just know how much there is to learn and understand, which you've built.
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A tremendous amount of experience with Gibson Plumbing and so, I mentioned earlier, you're a CPA, former baseball player of D1, like Houston.
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Did you always know you were going to be working in the finance space, or what was the evolution of all of that?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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I didn't.
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My dad owned a car wash in Houston.
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He was an attorney and kind of an entrepreneur as well.
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He opened up a general contracting company and I remember vividly growing up in Houston during the summer he had me work as a plumbing helper, digging ditches and just basically grunt work, doing whatever.
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And I tell you, when the plumber asked me to dig a ditch, he wanted it six foot down and he wanted it squared off and all that stuff.
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And just he said go.
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And then it came back about an hour and a half later and I was about three feet down with this narrow looking trench.
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It was horrible.
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And the guy said move out of the way.
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And then he brought in the professional and within an hour they had a nice six foot ditch squared side the whole thing.
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And that's when I knew my future was probably not into that, it was probably going to have to be somewhere else and looking to find that and which.
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I tell you what, though?
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It gave me a whole new respect to those people, the guys that get out there and do it every day, because it's an art and we don't appreciate it enough.
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That appreciation for the trades and what they can bring.
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That's where we connected, and getting people into the trades, I think, is a fantastic thing and something that you and I are both passionate about.
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But back to your question.
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I went to college.
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Baseball kind of took me there.
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I spent two years in junior college baseball and then transferred to the University of Houston.
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I was privileged enough to be able to play there.
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Throughout that experience I found that accounting was kind of my niche.
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I liked making the numbers balance.
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I was good at addition and subtraction, not much else in math, but I knew I could do that If I could just make it balanced.
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I had it whipped, I got into that and one thing led to another and I started with Cisco Food Services and worked 13 years with them and then after that's when I met Barry Bankler and started the whole Gibson journey.
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Wow, I love that you say you're good at addition and subtraction.
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I hate to admit this to you, brett, but if you would look at my methodology of tracking my finances, especially my business finances, you would throw me in the ditch, because I got some explaining to do.
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I got some work to do in that area.
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You don't just have money coming in and have no reason why.
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You have no understanding of why it's coming in, do you?
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I know?
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I know?
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Yeah, I know I of why it's coming in, do you?
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I know?
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I know, yeah, I know, I know where it's coming in.
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I know the buttons I'm pushing to kind of make that happen.
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I have an understanding of what my costs are, but I'm not like it's in my head.
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I don't have.
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You know what I was like straight up.
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I don't have a P&L statement.
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I don't have any budgeted buckets for anything.
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I know what my monthly recurring revenue is.
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I know what my targets are.
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I know what's outstanding, who I need to bug.
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That's actually on my calendar for today to follow up with counts receivable.
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I've got that but it's in my head, which for now is fine.
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But at the rate things are going, it's not going to be fine very much longer.
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That's right, it's going to be a mess, just like editing.
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Eventually you want to pass that off to somebody and have them do that and worry about all that.
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Yes, sir, yes sir, you got it.
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So I love the story about you digging a ditch, and some folks may not understand.
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You got to dig it square on the sides and if you don't know how to dig like, it sounds like something simple, the way to accomplish that goal six foot D or whatever it was.
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Six foot deep, 12 foot long, square on the sides.
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There are some precise behaviors, precise actions and techniques to make that happen, would you?
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agree with that?
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Oh, totally.
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If you or I went out and we were to run, or told to run, a jackhammer all day long, we'd wake up the next morning and be in lockdown.
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Man, you're right, it's just.
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Those are things that people all take for granted, and I'll tell pretty soon.
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I'm not sure we're going to be able to find anybody to dig a ditch, because I don't think the common person wants to do that, and I think that's why there's so much money in taxing and in the trades, because not a lot of people want to work outside in the heat or in the cold and do the things that are necessary to keep the infrastructure going that we're so accustomed to in the States.
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Yeah, yeah, and we've done.
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I'll say we, in terms of the industry, we have not done a great job in terms of adapting to, we'll just say, the generational differences and, maybe more appropriately, the way we communicate and listen or don't listen.
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Back in the day when I was an apprentice, when I was getting yelled at and all the good stuff, if I knew that I could make 30 grand sitting at home in my flip flops or go out in the sun and get yelled at and screamed at, you better believe that I would stay home and make that money from my computer.
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So back in our time, we had to go and apply, like fill out paper to apply for a job, right, like that was the only way we were going to get a job.
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It ain't like that, no more.
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So we've got the industry, the gray hairs like us we need to adapt to, and I've seen a lot of there's a lot of forward thinking organizations out there that really are making an initiative or like making the right moves to not just attract people but retain the people they got.
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And so the old, you just got to work.
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If you want to work, put your head down and work.
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And if you want feedback you get your check on Friday.
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If it's only one, that's feedback that you got a job.
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If it's two, that's feedback that you suck.
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What do you think?
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No, I think it's a great point.
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I mean, I was talking to a guy the other day.
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He runs a plumbing company here locally and he said the generation it's just not like it was.
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And long ago are the days where you can just put an apprentice with a plumber and then go out there and he's yelling at the apprentice all day long.
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People don't put up with that anymore.
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You have to create an environment where there's engagement, where the apprentice has a future and a path that they're going down and they know each step of the way how they're doing and they're getting that feedback and that becomes a recurring theme.
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Otherwise you lose people and it can be the best paying career in God, but you know, people just don't put up with that and good on them.
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I don't think they have to put up with that.
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Yes, yes, we both feel the same way.
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Why should you?
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Why should you get yelled at every day?
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Because it's quite honestly, it's hard enough to find people that are just going to show up consistently, day by day.
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Yes, and once you find that and you find somebody with that initiative and drive, you need to hook them in and you need to put your hooks on them and make sure they keep coming back and provide that future.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Provide the conditions for them to thrive and grow and people will stay.
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Like you said, I really wait.
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When I see some of the younger folks out there, I'm like damn man.
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They're like phenomenal advocates for themselves.
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And I'm like.
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I could learn a lot from you, because, man, for too many years I just sat back and waited for somebody to notice me and well, you know me like I'm not that quiet, but for a little bit, for a little while, like man, like what?
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Anyways, my point is they're fabulous advocates for themselves.
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They're not going to tolerate a lot of BS.
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And then, the way the market is, you do them wrong, they're going to have three offers on the way home period, right.
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So you got to do something.
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Now, the other interesting thing is and it's where I'm focusing my energy is, yes, we need more people, but there's so much waste like wasted effort, wasted labor hours, et cetera.
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That's inherent in the way we do construction, and that's commercial, residential, doesn't matter.
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And what I really want to pick apart is this thing that you did, that you went from hourly compensation to productivity-based compensation.
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What was it that got you there to say, wait a minute, there's another way to do this.
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But before we get into that, I want to give the L&M family member shout out.
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And this shout out goes to two people that are doing the behind the scenes wizardry Mr Angel and Mr Rene.
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Y'all might recognize Rene.
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Rene originally was the co-host, my baby brother.
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He fired me and then he offered me the opportunity to let him edit these podcast interviews and his buddy Angel they connected, and both of them.
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When y'all hear the episode and see all the cool, fancy little clips, it is a result of their hard work and I'm super appreciative of it.
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So give them, boys, a shout out.
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Rest of the family members out there, send me a comment, send me a like, send me whatever so that I can shout you out, because it's like the ultimate for me to know that at least one person's listening.
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Now that's a great question.
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That's one of the things I learned when I was at Cisco Food Services.
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We were looking to take our hourly drivers off of hourly pay and pay them back by the cases they delivered and the miles they drove on a daily basis, and that's kind of where I learned that principle.
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And the most beautiful thing about that is, if you do it right, all of a sudden you're left with the people that are actually doing the work anyway and they're putting in the time, they're putting in the blood, sweat and tears to do the job correctly and all of a sudden they start making exponentially more money.
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And so now you're rewarding that type of behavior because those guys are taking on money that they've never seen before.
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And that's the same thing we did at Gibson, and that's one of the things that I was a good fit when Barry brought me in to Gibson is he knew that I had that background, and what we did was we took the common tasks, the routine tasks that were done every day, and let's just pick apart like a rough end for a house.
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Well, rough end for a house.
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We know how many bathroom grooves are downstairs, and then you're obviously sending a three inch pipe upstairs.
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Based on the number of stacks, you can start formulating well, how many hours should that take?
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And we set up the model, we tracked it and we ran it parallel with what our guys were doing on a daily basis.
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We figured out if that would work or not.
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We made tweaks to it and then we started rolling it out and we took an average guy.
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And we took an average guy with a good attitude.
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We knew that he had the desire to do it and all of a sudden our hourly plumbers went from making 17, 20 bucks an hour to now they're making 35, 40 bucks an hour, because those were the guys that were working, the guys that were just there to collect hours.
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All of a sudden guess what?
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They're not there anymore because they don't know if they can make it doing what they're doing, and they probably can't because they're not being productive.
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So all of a sudden, you take an hour.
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You take an hourly plumber making 50, $60,000 and now he's pushing over a hundred, a hundred, $120,000 a year.
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That's life changing and I think that's where you and I have a lot in common and that's where we're passionate.
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You start making, you start changing people's lives and making a life and a career and you're improving their life and their career.
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That's what's so awesome about business is we have that opportunity, especially as business owners, to sit there and make those life-impacting changes for people.
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Yeah, and it's a mutual benefit right.
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So the program that you did benefited the plumbers and it also had some business impact, like you weren't just doing it as a community service right, like you were growing the business, and I imagine that helped you gain more market share and expand beyond San Antonio and so forth.
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No, that's a great point.
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All of a sudden, we had a model that others didn't and we're able to cut our workforce in half because now we've got all the productive people on board.
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They want more, they're absorbing more work and all of a sudden you grow your capacity of the amount of works you can handle with the same amount of people.
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So you have less drivers out there on the road, you've got less fuel that you're burning and you're getting more productivity.
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And your guys are doing a.
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They're chewing up the work.
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And the main thing, when you go through something like that, you've got to keep an eye on quality.
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Yeah, you're going to get people who are cutting all the corners because they're there to be efficient, get in, get out Right, and if there's a discussion that isn't secured or isn't caught through the wall, they may or may not take care of that.
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So you've got to really manage that quality.
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Yeah, because any system, I believe I'm a firm believer that any system, two things can happen.
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One, it can be manipulated, and two, it can be weaponized.
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Meaning it's clear to me that going from hourly production, hourly compensation, to production based compensation, there was an intent, there was a business value there and the individuals could earn money, but it could be weaponized.
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In my career, where I started kind of factoring in like lunches and half days on Fridays, if people, if we hit certain production measurements because I knew right, if we got to install a hundred foot of pipe in a week for 40 hours per person and we install 120 feet, well that's a 20% improvement, which is eight hours of labor that I technically gained.
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20% improvement, which is eight hours of labor that I technically gained.
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So leave at lunch, I'm going to pay you the whole day.
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Yeah, I'm losing four hours of production time, but I'm rewarding you for the extra four hours of production time that we got.
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Yep, and then once I, once I could see the team do that, I would raise the expectation week after week after week.
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Guess what happened?
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They stopped.
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They're like you know what, forget it.
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Like you're.
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You're running us ragged.
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You're always moving the goalposts Like this isn't cool, because one week they hit 120, the next week they hit 95 and I'm losing my mind.
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But 95 is pretty pretty not bad.
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And so that was me weaponizing the situation where eventually I matured and said, okay, if 120 is the thing, 120 is the thing and just let it be the 120 and we can learn and maybe adjust our estimates going forward.
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More importantly, I've eventually got to a point where it was like, instead of just saying go faster, let me study the guys that are hitting the 120.
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What is it that they're doing?
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How are they doing the work and how can I copy paste their method to optimize other people's process?
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And that worked out pretty well.
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Now, again, that was just on the poor guys that got stuck working on my projects.
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They're the ones that had to deal with that.
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It wasn't an organizational thing, but in your case, this was an enterprise-wide movement and you mentioned it.
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But I want to make sure people don't miss it, because I know there's some ambitious L&M family members out there.
00:19:28.632 --> 00:19:29.634
Like that's what we need to do.
00:19:29.634 --> 00:19:41.067
We need to go to performance-based compensation, but you will have an exodus I know when I've been in those situations.
00:19:41.067 --> 00:19:41.789
As soon as you raise that bar.
00:19:41.789 --> 00:19:43.693
You adopt transparency, increase accountability.
00:19:43.693 --> 00:19:46.826
People will leave quick, super fast.
00:19:46.826 --> 00:19:48.109
What was that like?
00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:52.865
Did y'all anticipate that happening, or did it kind of come out of left field?
00:19:53.948 --> 00:19:55.789
We kind of knew it was going to happen.
00:19:55.789 --> 00:19:57.813
We knew we were going to have some attrition.
00:19:57.813 --> 00:20:03.101
Understanding how much attrition that we were going to have was, I think, an eye opener.
00:20:03.101 --> 00:20:10.845
But it was also an eye opener to understand that we're going to be left with the most productive people and they're going to be able to absorb all the work.
00:20:10.845 --> 00:20:20.909
So, yeah, you feel bad on to some degree about the guys are just out there collecting hours but, quite honestly, they're not being productive and they're not.
00:20:20.909 --> 00:20:31.027
They don't have the best intentions of the company at mind, and we have to have a strong company to be able to afford a good living for the rest of the people that are there.
00:20:32.070 --> 00:20:33.355
Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
00:20:33.355 --> 00:20:43.230
Well, you may not know this, but my dad used to work for Gibson back in the eighties, maybe up until the early nineties.
00:20:43.230 --> 00:20:45.076
He worked there multiple times.
00:20:45.076 --> 00:20:49.426
All I remember is driving them down or they offer WW white.
00:20:50.429 --> 00:20:51.550
They're in that area.
00:20:51.612 --> 00:20:53.255
Yeah, yeah, I just yeah, I just remember.
00:20:53.255 --> 00:20:55.117
Oh, we gotta go pick up, dad.
00:20:55.117 --> 00:20:56.066
It's hot out there.
00:20:56.066 --> 00:20:57.368
There's nothing out there.
00:20:57.388 --> 00:21:13.719
That was way back in the day, man, but but jeff getting back to your point about giving the guys that friday afternoon off, I think it's so critical nowadays to understand what motivates people and, yes, you can't just manage everybody like they're a robot.
00:21:13.719 --> 00:21:15.228
Back to our original point.
00:21:15.228 --> 00:21:28.672
If you get somebody that has the qualities and traits, you need to embrace that guy and keep him close to the vest because, like you say, there's going to be other opportunities for somebody who wants to make a better life for themselves and is motivated to do so.
00:21:28.672 --> 00:21:31.502
And some guys are motivated by time off.
00:21:31.502 --> 00:21:33.692
We're starting to see a lot of that nowadays.
00:21:34.025 --> 00:21:56.308
People and I shouldn't say guys, because women are productive, if not more productive than guys nowadays but some people want time off, some people want more pay, some people it's just you run the gamut and we've got to be flexible and have those weekly conversations and check-ins with people so we know exactly where they're coming from.
00:21:56.308 --> 00:22:03.792
Just because Jeffy likes a half day on Friday, well, you may have another person who wants to work that half day on Friday and make more money.
00:22:03.792 --> 00:22:07.349
It's just you know, you don't know without being engaged.
00:22:08.332 --> 00:22:10.217
There's two key things you said there.
00:22:10.217 --> 00:22:13.384
One so people, if y'all don't know out there, if you want something from me, there's two key things you said there.
00:22:13.384 --> 00:22:15.808
One if some people, if y'all don't know out there, if you want something from me, there's two ways.
00:22:15.808 --> 00:22:18.997
Flatter me, schedule a parade for me.
00:22:18.997 --> 00:22:20.788
You'll get anything you want from me.
00:22:20.788 --> 00:22:27.209
And give me some food, some pastries, some yummy, delicious, greasy, high fat, high salt food.
00:22:27.209 --> 00:22:28.531
And you got me.
