Feb. 13, 2025
Nate Rogers on Empathy and Strategy: A New Vision for Leadership Success
Imagine discovering that the very aspects of your personality you've been told to suppress could actually be your greatest strength. Nate Rogers, founder of Four Eyes Facilitation, joins us to unpack his journey of embracing empathy as a leadership tool. Through his candid insights, Nate challenges the societal norms that often pressure men to mask their emotions and shares how authenticity and empathy can transform team dynamics and leadership effectiveness. This episode isn't just about listening; it's about understanding the unspoken and recognizing the power of being true to oneself.
We've all heard that introspection is key, but what does it actually look like in practice? This episode gives a special nod to Renee Duron, who witnessed firsthand the power of effective planning in Jesse's time management workshop. From leading a transformation team at Ohio Health to embarking on a reflective sabbatical, our discussion underscores the importance of knowing one's intrinsic strengths beyond job titles. The conversation navigates the balance between stepping back to let others shine and the often intangible impact a coach can have on a team's success.
Get ready to rethink everything you know about leadership, feedback, and systems-building. We explore the parallels between the fast-paced precision of a pit crew and everyday business processes, revealing how optimizing systems can unlock hidden potential. Nate Rogers sheds light on how his organization, Four Eyes Facilitation, helps teams achieve clarity and joy through strategic visioning. By the end of this episode, you'll gain insights into the energy dynamics of public speaking and the invaluable role of personalized strategies for individuals with unique traits, leaving you inspired to embrace both your strengths and challenges.
Connect with Nate at:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nate-j-rogers/
https://www.foureyesfacilitation.com/
Visit the website and let me know what you would miss if the Podcast were to go away:
https://www.depthbuilder.com/
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
Chapters
00:00 - Empathetic Facilitation and Self-Discovery
07:13 - Navigating Leadership and Self-Reflection
17:31 - Reflecting on Systems and Feedback
23:18 - Exploring Leadership, Empathy, and Self-Understanding
36:22 - Unlocking Potential Through Facilitation
Transcript
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I think it costs like hundreds of millions, a few hundred million dollars to build.
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Now what's crazy is we know what that supercomputer does because we humans put the software on.
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We don't know our software.
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Validation from others is a drug.
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Like you get it and you're like yes, I feel great.
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And then 30 seconds later the drug wears off and you're like somebody tell me I'm amazing again.
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I watch a few things about other people who succeed in business with ADHD, which I have, and they're like this is how I get through task X.
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And it's often something that you'd never get coached to do in typical leadership training.
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What is going on L&M family.
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We're going to have a super awesome conversation.
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It's like a part two to a conversation that you're not going to get to hear.
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But Mr Nate Rogers and I kicked this off.
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I don't know, it's probably been a month or so ago.
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I was fortunate enough that Megan introduced us and made the connection.
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We had a conversation.
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I was like bro, we need to get you on the podcast.
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He's got tons of energy, tons of insight.
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He is the founder of Four Eyes Facilitation, which I love the name.
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He's got massive, massive experience in retail and healthcare at the executive level, and I think what you're going to learn is we have the same I'll just call it vice in terms of experimenting, learning, growing and serving others, and so y'all are going to get to know Mr Nate here in a second.
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If this is your first time here, I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and this is the Learnings and Mystics podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it, and we are about to learn how Mr Nate is going to do that right now.
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Mr Nate, how are you, my man?
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I'm good, jesse, thanks so much for having me, yeah likewise, I'm good, jesse.
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Thanks so much for having me.
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Yeah, likewise.
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So I got a simple question you ready, yep?
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What is empathetic facilitation?
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Oh, that's a simple question.
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It's a little trickier to answer, but I'll hit it up.
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So actually, when I was a kid, I called this ability called empathy, sensitivity, and so stuff happened on the playground and I'd freak out.
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My buddies would say, like don't be so sensitive.
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And eventually, especially as I progressed through my career, I learned that it was actually my EQ, or my ability to empathize with others, and when you read it in the dictionary you're like, oh so this dude can feel other people's feelings and so he's in tune with them.
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Sweet Like it sounds, like we're all going to go out in the woods and have granola and have a nice time.
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But when it comes to the business world and facilitation, what it actually means is in the room.
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When I'm helping a group of leaders be their best, I'm reading them.
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Just because of some of my natural talents, I'm seeing that little tick in somebody's face that says I'm not sure I agree with what that other individual just said, and so it helps me.
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I'm not sure I agree with what that other individual just said, and so it helps me as I'm helping those leaders know when it's time to pause to say I need you to respond, charlie, to Sally, because she just had something to share and I watched your face.
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There's something going on.
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Sometimes it's tone of voice, sometimes it's body language, and it's all learnable For me, I guess.
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I was fortunate enough to be that sensitive kid and so it's a little ingrained in how I operate.
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In a nutshell, it's just the practice of facilitating people to do more than they ever could before by paying attention to how they're feeling.
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Yes, like all superpowers, when I was a kid I thought it was a super weakness.
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It's different in different cultures, right, but at least when I was younger, we were still in the era of hiding your emotions and being more on the macho side, especially as a male.
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So, being that kid that blushed easily or, in certain circumstances, would even cry, culturally or socially, it felt like a weakness, and people would even explicitly say that to me, right, and so I worked a lot to suppress it.
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So not to interrupt you, but yeah, it's definitely super strength, but didn't know it for a long, long time.
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For my fellow empaths.
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You know exactly how exhausting this is, because people look at you sideways so you try to mask it and naturally I'm like man.
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I got to ask Nate about this thing, really wanted to know how his energy is impacted, and this is what he responded.
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Exhausting, dude.
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I mean, it just takes a lot of energy to not be you and I feel like we've all been there before, right, and so it's tiring, it's disheartening when you shape yourself more than you should in order to respond to the world around you and makes you wonder like, okay, these people who are close to me, are they really close to me?
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Me or the version of me I've chose to put out because I think that's what others want to see and frankly, especially as I get older, I think we all do that.
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I think I spent a lot of time when I was younger thinking I was the only one, but that's just the conversation none of us have with each other, right?
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It's like there's the version of me I put out there and I think anyone could say a similar story.
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They just may have different characteristics that they're either shaping or molding to fit in differently.
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Different characteristics that really really stood out to me.
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It made me curious if he knew that this empathy thing was a strength and that it would lead to the life he's living today.
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So let's see what he says.
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Throughout my career, at like every step where most folks would say, okay, that's progress or you know, a step towards or a step into success, I've relied honestly on those around me to tell me A that I'm doing well, instead of it just coming from me like saying, oh, I know, I'm crushing it right now.
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But then I think also I haven't always known why I've been successful.
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And it's interesting, I think the more leadership groups I become a part of and the more businesses I become exposed to I think that's a common trait we tend to be better at knowing when we weren't successful and we pick that apart and we know why.
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But when you are finally sitting on top of the mountain, not everyone, and certainly not myself, can say I know exactly why I got here.
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I think there's certain personality types that are very linear thinkers and they know the path and they're like yeah, I got on top of the mountain because I chose to deprive myself of oxygen the same way it was going to be when I was on top of the mountain by doing X, y, z and carrying rocks on my back through the park.
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But that's not most of us.
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Most of us are sort of like well, there's a million variables going on around me and somehow right now I'm successful, and so I had no idea until, honestly, very recently probably the last four or five years I've been really unpacking it and finally understanding more.
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Are you wondering the same thing?
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I'm wondering.
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I was thinking like, okay, so when exactly did you have the aha moment about this magic ability?
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And of course I asked that's a good question.
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I don't know that it was necessarily a single aha, but it was right around.
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But before that we're going to do the L&M family member shout out, and this one goes to Renee.
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Renee Duron says I'm so glad I signed up for Jesse's do the damn thing time management workshop.
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It completely shifted how I'm so glad I signed up for Jesse's Do the Damn Thing time management workshop.
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It completely shifted how I'm going to handle my time and ideas moving forward.
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One of the biggest takeaways for me was learning the art of monthly and quarterly planning, specifically to manage my squirrels.
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Rene, thank you.
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And Rene gets an extra, extra shout out because he's also the editor of the L&M podcast and so I'm going to make him blush a little bit.
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But he and 14 other people hung out on the time management workshop.
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I was worried that it was going to kind of be roll your eye, boring type stuff, but a lot of people got a lot of value out of it and we're going to be doing them again in the future.
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And folks out there, you're listening.
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You got to know I love the comments, I love the shares, I love the stars, the thumbs up, the thumbs down.
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Please hit me up with your comments so that I can celebrate you in the future.
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When I pivoted into a role leading a transformation team at Ohio Health, which is a pretty large 30,000 employee healthcare system in Central Ohio, and it was probably the most purposeful time where I was trying to get others to innovate and stepping back myself.
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So I was more creating the problems to solve and the environment for success and coaching people.
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But I had to pull away.
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Usually until that point I was successful a lot, I felt like because I was bringing a fresh perspective or the thinking or the work product I created.
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I've been leading people for 10, 15 years before that, but this was the time where I really got out of the work and into helping others thrive in the most meaningful way I ever had and that made me start to say, well, all right, if I'm going to help somebody else.
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Or in this case, it was like I had six directors reporting to me that ran these transformation projects.
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I was like when we get those six directors to thrive doing the thing that the business has found valuable from me, I need to learn what the heck it is that works and doesn't work right.
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I'm sure a lot of people who've had one moment or another where they've been successful someone said to them.
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Man, it'd be great if we just had a few more Jessys here.
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And so this was like literal moment of Nate.
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Go help us have six more Nates and innovate and transform the way we deliver care to our patients.
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It's like sweet, that sounds awesome.
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Who the hell is Nate?
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You know what I mean?
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It's like those outside observe you all the time and you're busy watching them and observing them.
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So I think that was probably the biggest trigger, and then it's been kind of progressive since then, because I mean, when you talked about peeling the onion, it's like once you start picking, it's hard to stop.
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I know that introspection is like super, ultra, ultimate, valuable, and I also know guiding teams effectively takes massive introspection Like for me as an individual and Nate's like no scrub.
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He's got it going on, so I wanted to really get a sense of how he goes about looking inward and what value he gets out of that.
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Well, yeah, I think that's right, and I think helping coach people through and observe them at work doing the things that historically I'd done well, frankly, it was the most fantastic experiment I could have ever asked for.
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Right, because it was like I got to watch these folks try the systems I was building for them and the processes and trying to articulate a lot of things that were a bit more on the intuitive side for me prior, and so I'd watch and I'd be like you know what that person rocks the process in a session where they're trying to get people to come up with novel ideas to solve a problem.
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But they didn't really connect with the people in the room and so the people in the room tuned out Cool.
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Now we've got to iterate and figure out, and it was like again this whole time.
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I think I had that role for four years and I think a lot of that time I spent thinking about what those on my team could do in different ways to excel and get better and better and better.
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I don't know that I really really processed it about myself until this sabbatical I took that you and I discussed like just this spring into summer, because then it's like it was about four months that I had off, which I felt so fortunate and grateful to be able to do that.
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And when it's quiet and you're not creating and you're not managing, it doesn't have to be four months, right.
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But you start looking inward more and suddenly I was like hang on, a second man.
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I've been coaching people to do these things and I think we talked about this the first time we met.
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The past made sense to me like all of a sudden, and I've had a couple of those moments, but this sabbatical I took definitely triggered one, because I was like man, I can think way, way, way, way, way, way back to when I was in year one, two, three, four of my career.
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Although my job titles had nothing to do necessarily with what I do now, I was doing this thing where I got groups of people together.
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I was the glue, I was helping them thrive in ways that either they were self-conscious about or didn't know about.
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It was like that's what I've always done.
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But the wrapper around all my stuff was whatever you know, like manager of internet marketing or director of marketing strategy.
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Those titles became my thought and my identity.
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But that's not in those jobs how I was successful, right?
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So one of the things about coaching and facilitating teams, like as the facilitator, it's kind of difficult to know if you did a good job.
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Now, of course, you deliver value right, but did I deliver on the little nuance, magical things that I really, really want to do, Like did I leave a seed in somebody's mind that's going to grow into something greater in the future is really what I'm looking for.
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And so, like, the affirmation of did I have an effect as a facilitator is difficult because you're not there.
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You know a week later, a month later, a year later, and so I wanted to know, like, how Nate dealt with this affirmation thing and maybe resilience of working through with or without it, and he gave a pretty, pretty insightful answer that I wonder if this lands with you.
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I think you know some of that too is just me slowly but surely gaining more confidence and not worrying about if someone else doesn't tell me I did a good job.
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Then I don't know where I fit in the universe.
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The more I've become comfortable with recognizing both where I'm not strong but where I am, that has helped me process it more, because I think man, for me at least, validation from others is a drug.
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Like you get it and you're like, yes, I feel great.
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And then 30 seconds later the drug wears off and you're like somebody tell me I'm amazing again.
00:14:05.863 --> 00:14:10.822
Right, I just dug up a buddy of mine in high school who I just kind of reconnected with on LinkedIn.
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We both like Calvin and Hobbes, we were kids a comic and he wrote the creator of it, bill Watterson, and it was like my birthday was coming up and he's like my buddy's birthday is coming up and he super loves Calvin and Hobbes.
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I don't know, I never saw the letter my friend sent, but I did get back two big pieces of art from Bill Watterson sent in with a form letter, and the one that I just pulled up in my basement literally this weekend.
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The first panel up in the top left is like congratulations, calvin, you got an A.
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And that's his teacher talking to him and then most of the big panel is like giant ticker tape parade, like Calvin gets an A, blah, blah, blah and there's like streamers and all this stuff and then the bottom right corner, the end of the comics, like the teacher's saying, okay, moving on to the next topic, and I'm like that's life, dude.
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Like the way Calvin felt, like dude, I got an A especially.
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I mean, at least I'm assuming based on his character, he didn't get a whole lot of A's.
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You feel like you're top of the world when somebody else pats you on the head and then they're like moving on, but you get hooked right.
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You're like how will I get somebody to make me feel that way again?
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And I think some others, as I observe them, are far better than I am at doing that for themselves, which I think is really healthy.
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But man, I got super addicted to that.
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I wish I'd been aware of in my 20s.
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I mean it makes all the sense in the world.
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It's like.
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I mean it's funny, like a lot of the things that are key to success and really click for you seem like kind of common sense and what you just said is like duh.
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If I want to mow my lawn, I have a system of how to get my lawn mowed and that makes total sense.
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But we don't always do that for our own path and for our own well-being and enjoyment and for those around us.
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So, yeah, it makes sense, and I have no idea why don't we learn that in kindergarten?
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Man, that seems like such an important skill.
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Speaking of being in our twenties, nate's story got me reminiscing about the very first time I documented my system for influencing others.
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Like don't get carried away, it's not super fancy.
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I found it in a journal that I had written back like when I was in fourth grade.
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I found it in a journal that I had written back like when I was in fourth grade and it was a story about how I would get girls to chase me by pulling their hair.
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And I think that falls squarely in the bucket of influence and me being aware of what that system looked like.
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And Nate gives us a little bit of insight into how he thinks of systems in the work that he does.
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I did have systems, probably, and didn't.
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I wasn't just as intentional about them.
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It's sort of like you got a behavior plan, whether you, whether you think you do or not right now.
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Is it a good one?
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But zero effort or thought into it's probably, unless you're lucky, not so great and honestly, it's a little bit of a journey.
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I've been on the last couple of years where I've started to create a documented system out of the things that were successful for me this year.
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That's this new business Four Eyes is all about and it's interesting because it's been a challenge.
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It's only been a real thing since Labor Day of 24 here, but suddenly having to put on paper these are the tools that I'm going to repetitively use to achieve result X for others, it's a lot of work, man.
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I mean your process that you you know, resulting in getting chased by girls, was straightforward, like in the business world, with tons of humans surrounding you on top of the business problems.
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Not so straightforward, right, that's been.
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Actually the most interesting part for me is trying to I think you put it really well document maybe that system that I use, which is fun.
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It's hard because it's my system.
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I'd be great at documenting your system.
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More systems talk.
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Can you tell that I like systems.
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Documenting your system is a pain, but you want to know what's harder?
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It's identifying the things that people appreciate about you, that you're not like doing by design those intangible things.
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That's something that like is ultra, ultra valuable to me, because, sure, you know, there's some things that I do here's my plan, here's my process and and it works and it conveys the information and I do those by design.
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But there's a lot of things that I do that people appreciate or want more of or really like that I'm not necessarily doing on purpose and I don't know what it is.
00:18:42.481 --> 00:18:51.784
And the only way that I figured out how to learn it is by asking, like, super, super precise questions, and I was wondering how Nate does this for himself.
00:18:51.784 --> 00:18:52.425
So check it out.
00:18:52.595 --> 00:18:56.086
Well, no, I think there are two parts to what you just hit on, jesse.
00:18:56.086 --> 00:19:02.008
The first is having others who I would coach required me to like figure out my process.
00:19:02.008 --> 00:19:08.507
But yes, I was fortunate in that same team we were talking about earlier, that transformation team that you know.
00:19:08.507 --> 00:19:22.090
The rest of my team gave me feedback too, and that was awesome because, to your point, there's stuff that you don't you don't see in yourself, and sometimes that's the most simple, obvious stuff, and you need somebody external.
00:19:22.090 --> 00:19:23.920
At the end of the day, I think that's a simple, simple, obvious stuff and you need somebody external.
00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.519
At the end of the day, I think that's a simple process.
00:19:26.161 --> 00:19:40.949
Objectively, it's harder to get into a habit, right, but it's like when you do something that feels important, afterwards just ask and I think sometimes so they're like these phrases that you get taught in different training seminars.
00:19:40.949 --> 00:19:45.003
It's like this is how you request feedback or this is how you give whatever works for you.
00:19:45.003 --> 00:19:51.084
Man, like I literally like I'll get to the end of something that I believe is important and I need to replicate.
00:19:51.084 --> 00:19:51.826
That's an important part.
00:19:51.826 --> 00:20:01.237
If it's one and done, important and never gonna happen again in your life, maybe not the best time to like invest everybody's energy, but something that's important and I wanna replicate or improve upon.
00:20:01.237 --> 00:20:03.821
But something that's important and I want to replicate or improve upon, how'd that work for you guys?
00:20:03.821 --> 00:20:07.249
Because I want to know and then sometimes people get stuck.
00:20:07.469 --> 00:20:15.623
There's a technique that, when I was learning about how to run product teams and not like the technology space, so like product originally came from the.
00:20:15.623 --> 00:20:19.044
You know the way technology companies referred to their software.
00:20:19.044 --> 00:20:19.424
They sold.
00:20:19.424 --> 00:20:22.579
But you can use it in all kinds of spaces, right, like your product.
00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:24.943
I'm a product, like a service we sell could be a product.
00:20:24.943 --> 00:20:37.884
And one of the organizations who I've learned a lot across my career by, like, hiring great people as consultants and then watching how they work and then trying my best to replicate the things that work the best.
00:20:37.884 --> 00:20:51.378
Well, this company called Pillar Technologies no longer around they got acquired by Accenture but they taught me the retro, which, again, super basic, right, if you're not getting what you need with, how'd that work for all of you?
00:20:51.378 --> 00:20:54.025
It's as simple as what works well.
00:20:54.025 --> 00:20:55.208
So those are the pluses.
00:20:55.875 --> 00:20:57.559
What would you change for next time?
00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:04.523
And they're little deltas, right, like the little triangle, and then, if you really want to, you have a team that meets over and over again, like in the product world.
00:21:04.523 --> 00:21:08.318
You actually say cool, what are some of the commitments and who's going to own them?
00:21:08.318 --> 00:21:10.044
To achieve difference?
00:21:10.044 --> 00:21:12.096
Right, but at a minimum, just that.
00:21:12.557 --> 00:21:14.702
How about we talk about the good and the not so good?
00:21:14.702 --> 00:21:22.924
It gets people going right Because one person will say something good and it gives the whole room permission then to give you constructive criticism.
00:21:22.924 --> 00:21:23.806
But they're waiting.
00:21:23.806 --> 00:21:26.390
No one wants to be the first one to be like you talk too much.
00:21:26.390 --> 00:21:33.080
But when someone says you know what, I love the amount of information you provide, that was really cool.
00:21:33.080 --> 00:21:37.694
Someone else can easily then jump in and say but I wish you opened the floor up a little bit more.
00:21:37.694 --> 00:21:40.217
So I think that's a nice cheat code.
00:21:40.217 --> 00:21:44.339
If the room isn't familiar with straight up, how'd that work for you?
00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:45.760
And they start gushing.
00:21:45.760 --> 00:21:51.104
Asking a group like that for feedback is like asking your spouse to schedule a touch base.
00:21:51.104 --> 00:21:54.767
It's like buzzword overdose, right?
00:21:54.767 --> 00:21:57.868
Nobody wants to talk like that to each other, right?
00:21:57.868 --> 00:22:04.012
We all want to enjoy each other as humans and, yes, conceptually it is feedback.
00:22:04.012 --> 00:22:04.776
But I'm with you, man.
00:22:04.875 --> 00:22:15.788
So I was like totally jiving with Nate's perspective on leadership because I could see like just in the way he speaks he practices leadership in the way I most appreciate it.
00:22:15.788 --> 00:22:26.630
And so I was like, you know, I wonder what he thinks about academic or leadership as defined in the world of academia.
00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:29.179
And he did not disappoint.
00:22:29.179 --> 00:22:30.602
Check it out.
00:22:31.002 --> 00:22:31.944
Oh, that's a cool question.
00:22:31.944 --> 00:22:33.248
Well, it's funny.
00:22:33.248 --> 00:22:36.300
You mentioned so this conventional leadership tactics thing.
00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:49.357
There are billions of people on the planet, right, and so you can research, sure, objectively, and say like this is what seems to work in general for leaderships, and so we're calling this the leadership system.
00:22:49.357 --> 00:22:50.339
So go rock it, dude.
00:22:50.339 --> 00:23:23.961
Well, there are people that's going to work really well for and there are people that it's not going to do anything but backfire on, and there are definitely behaviors that I've been coached to adapt or adopt, and some of them I'm like man, what great advice that was, because it works really well for me and others I'm like I never want to do that again, not because it might be the best thing in the world for you, jesse, but for me, in the way I show up, it looks really obvious you're wearing a mask sometimes when you pull on one of those behaviors and everyone's like who's that guy?
00:23:23.961 --> 00:23:26.046
We don't need a performer, right?
00:23:26.046 --> 00:23:29.481
We need a teammate or a boss or whatever it is so far.
00:23:30.263 --> 00:23:34.320
Nate's kind of becoming my BFF, just his insight, the way he thinks about things.
00:23:34.320 --> 00:23:35.744
So I said you know what?
00:23:35.744 --> 00:23:37.396
Let me hit him with the curve ball.
00:23:37.396 --> 00:23:49.683
Let's see how he thinks about social media and if there is or isn't an opportunity, or if it's a resource to like build knowledge, learn and acquire skills through.
00:23:49.865 --> 00:23:51.777
I agree with that and I think so.
00:23:51.777 --> 00:24:07.481
There's a lot of stuff that I think could be a whole lot cooler about social media, but one of the things I do like about it is you can find these little like micro populations of people that share characteristics, right, and then the algorithm keeps giving you more and more and more.
00:24:07.481 --> 00:24:17.540
So I have found that, in order to figure out what to keep, what to throw away, what to try, I've been finding a lot of luck in, you know, even on just like Instagram.
00:24:17.540 --> 00:24:34.884
It's like I watch a few things about other people who succeed in business with ADHD, which I have, and they're like this is how I get through task X, and it's often something that you'd never get coached to do in typical leadership training, but I'll try it.
00:24:34.884 --> 00:24:46.984
And sometimes it's like, well, that randomly happened to work for that person, whatever, but more often than not, because the ADHD brain sets have some similar characteristics, I'm like, oh, that tip works for me.
00:24:46.984 --> 00:24:55.881
And similarly it's like, as I find other people who kind of self-identify as an empath, who can understand what others are feeling intuitively, this is how I handle this situation.
00:24:55.901 --> 00:24:56.923
I'm like that I like.
00:24:56.923 --> 00:25:00.916
But a leader who has a totally different makeup?
00:25:00.916 --> 00:25:07.489
Is that linear thinker, maybe more of a command and control style of leadership?
00:25:07.489 --> 00:25:14.762
None of those things are going to work for that person and, frankly, none of their things are going to work for me, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't respect them and understand that.
00:25:14.762 --> 00:25:16.386
You know this can be useful for them.
00:25:16.386 --> 00:25:26.586
For me, like whether it actually looks great or not, it doesn't really matter, but like there's a lot of shirts that you just don't feel right in, right Y'all already know I love zigzagging around, I ask a bunch of questions.
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