March 27, 2025
Why Businesses Fail at Training: A Deep Dive with Dr. Carrie Graham
Dr. Carrie Graham brings over 25 years of expertise in adult workplace learning to this eye-opening conversation about why most corporate training fails to deliver meaningful results. With refreshing candor and profound insights, she challenges conventional approaches that prioritize content over people.
"If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing?" This powerful question cuts to the heart of where training programs go wrong. Graham explains that organizations repeatedly miss the mark by creating content-heavy, performative training that doesn't acknowledge who their workforce actually is as learners. She shares a personal awakening when her own training wasn't achieving results, and instead of blaming participants, she asked why – discovering they lacked time, resources, and sometimes even basic skills needed to implement what she was teaching.
The discussion ventures into how organizations can meaningfully measure training ROI by starting with alignment between training approaches and company vision. Dr Graham emphasizes the critical importance of actually using collected feedback rather than letting it gather dust – a common failure that signals to employees that everything is merely performative. Through compelling stories, including Jesse's brilliant demonstration teaching executives bachata dance steps as a metaphor for unrealistic training expectations, the conversation illuminates how we must rethink support systems after initial training.
Most powerfully, Carrie reveals how her own professional journey evolved through recognizing approximately 4-5 year growth cycles, where boredom signals evolution rather than failure. Her advice on "sitting in the hard thing to understand the hard thing" offers wisdom for both individual growth and organizational transformation. The conversation culminates in a deeply moving reflection on her purpose: being a light for others in both personal and professional contexts.
Ready to transform how your organization approaches learning? Connect with Dr. Graham at http://www.drcarriegraham.com/ and download her free training assessment tool to start identifying where your current approaches might be missing the mark.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drcarriegraham
Make yourself a priority and get more done: https://www.depthbuilder.com/do-the-damn-thing
Download a PDF copy of Becoming the Promise You are Intended to Be
https://www.depthbuilder.com/books
Chapters
00:18 - The Hard Truth About Inviting Chaos
04:37 - Measuring ROI of Training Programs
12:14 - Understanding Your Workforce as People
18:46 - The Performative Training Trap
33:35 - Personal Growth Cycles in Career Paths
46:44 - Sitting in Hard Things to Transform
57:30 - The Promise of Being a Light
Transcript
WEBVTT
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He got to go and this job got to go.
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Let me say this why would you invite chaos?
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Why would you invite additional pain?
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Why would you invite burnout to sit at your table?
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If you're not thinking about the people, what the hell are you doing?
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You have to sit in the hard thing to understand the hard thing.
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When you are obesely, overweight and you're trying to lose weight, you got to take all the clothes off and look at it from all angles.
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What is going on?
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Lnm family Coming back at you with another amazing guest, super duper accomplished and I hinted at this before I hit record.
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It's like folks if you want to grow like massively and connect with super amazing people, start a podcast.
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It's a good excuse for a goofball like me to have the opportunity to speak to super, super accomplished folks.
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You're going to be meeting Dr Keri Graham.
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She's got over 25 years of training experience and no, we're not talking about squats and burpees, we're talking about like real professional stuff.
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She's got a PhD in adult and workplace learning, which is a space that I play around in, but I'm sure I'm going to learn some things to level up my game because I'm just figuring it out as I go.
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And here's the cool thing she schools businesses on training strategies that solve training program missteps and full disclosure.
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I am probably, or have been, one of those training missteps.
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So we're going to get some goods on the training and all the other stuff.
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And if this is your first time here, you're listening to the Learnings and Missteps podcast, where you get to see how real people just like you are sharing their gifts and talents to leave this world better than they found it.
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I'm Jesse, your selfish servant, and we about to get to know Dr Keri.
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Dr Keri, how are you?
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What's up, jesse?
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I am so honored to be here with you and with your audience.
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I love all of it.
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I am here for all of it and it's one thing to share like, oh, look at me, look at the professional things I've done.
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I've made so many missteps and I'm here to share them, like I'm just ready, let me free myself of my missteps.
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Oh, let's do it.
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I will absolve you of all of them.
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And you know, here's a truth, or maybe an observation from a personal observation.
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I mean, you're a doctor, right, your PhD is not.
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It's not a small thing.
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I know because I've shared a lot of space with another amazing, accomplished woman who was working on her EDD, and that is like life consuming work just to get to that point.
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Of course, sacrifice, commitment, all the things.
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But the interesting thing is in my head, I believe that folks with PhDs and advanced degrees are maybe come from a greater than now energy, but so far, the ones that I know personally absolutely not Super cool down people ready just to share and have some communication about how to make things better, and so I applaud you for the humility and just being real.
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That's what it's about.
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And what do you think?
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What do you say?
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We start off with a super simple question I love it.
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I love it, love it all right here it is how does one measure the roi of training?
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Good lord, good lord.
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Okay, I need you to repeat the question.
00:04:02.872 --> 00:04:11.383
Yeah, that came out of nowhere huh, I thought you were going to say what's your favorite food.
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Okay, one more time Say it again.
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So I like to start with the heavy one and then we'll have fun after that.
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I've been in training for a long time no official.
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Well, I do have a little bit of education on, like how to do it specifically for adult learners.
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Yeah, and I have a lot of friends in this a little bit of education on, like how to do it specifically for adult learners and I have a lot of friends in the space.
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And the thing that's, I would say, hardest or maybe that could help folks that are in that space is the question of return on investment, because we know how impactful training and development is.
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But connecting it to the actual KPIs that the organization is tracking seems to be the nut.
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If people could crack that, they would overcome a lot of resistance.
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That's my assumption, and so that's where the question comes from.
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Do you have any cheat codes or advice for folks on how to connect the impact of the training to the KPIs of the business?
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It is a fair question and you're right, it is the one that everyone wants the answer to and I believe the answer exists.
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I do, I do and here, yeah, here's what it is.
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It's not a one size fits all answer, and what is the answer for one organization may not be the answer for another organization.
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So that's the first thing, right, like, we got to all stop looking for the quick fix and thinking, well, it worked for so-and-so, it worked for so-and-so, we'll just do the same thing.
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Teams don't even do that, right, they don't run the exact same plays, they work with what they got.
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So that's the first thing.
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The second thing I encourage people to look at what they're training for and match it to who they're training, because oftentimes people want to get from the oh, we're training for this objective to meet the KPI and that's.
00:06:08.141 --> 00:06:18.221
They just keep going from one, from a, expecting to go from A to C, but they're being the value in B and when.
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If you continue to keep missing out on the people, right, like, you build a training but it's not for the people, it's for the to meet the KPI You're never going to get a return on your investment.
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That's pretty basic.
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If you want a true return on your investment.
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You have to stop looking outside of your organization, you have to look within and you must acknowledge.
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Who are these people not?
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Oh, they're middle managers.
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Oh, they're only Gen Z.
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Oh, they are.
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Who are they as people and who are they as learners?
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Why?
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I'm going to climb up on my high horse right now.
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Why in the world?
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why in the world would you create a training that is content heavy, content heavy.
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And it has to be, because that's the nature of your business, your work, and you're presenting it in a couple hours, Just showing it.
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But you expect your people.
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You might have some new individuals, new to the organization, some people who are in job like role transition within the organization, some people who are in job like role transition within your organization, but yet you expect them to comprehend all of this information and then make sense of it on their own and apply it so you can meet your KPI.
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That just doesn't make good sense.
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It's not logical.
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It is not logical.
00:08:03.264 --> 00:08:05.449
It is not logical, Jesse.
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I just have to say Dr Kerry, I'm going to tell you like you're speaking to my soul.
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You can see me dancing and getting excited over here, right?
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Because am I guilty of drowning people with every damn miscellaneous piece of detail information that they might need, just in case?
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Absolutely Like the people that went through the first training I put together, I feel bad for them.
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And then the connection.
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I want to share two confessions with you so you can help folks understand like, yeah, you see that out there, maybe I'm just some psychopath that does it really wrong.
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So first situation, early, early on, when I first got into like training and it was not a formal thing, like I was showing my friends how I did things at the bar or at a barbecue after hours, hanging out, right, it wasn't like official training, but I was trying to teach them.
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Then it became my job.
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So I put a little training program together, training program together, and the words that I used was saying you need to do this so that my job is easier.
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I wasn't saying that precisely, but that was the message you need to do this to comply with our business objectives.
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And so I remember one friend of mine is like hey, man, like this is good stuff, but it's like it's only for you.
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What do you mean?
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It's for you guys, and so is that kind of an example of the bee hitting the bee.
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Let's knock it in.
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So here's a story, a very short story, that really pulled the veil for me.
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So at some point in my career I but before that we want to do the L&M.
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Family member shout out, and this one goes to Jennifer Lacey, and y'all, if you know me, know she didn't pay me.
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She actually gave me this super awesome thought.
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And so Jennifer says when I signed up to the Do the Damn Thing time management workshop, facilitated by me, jesse, I thought I would get a couple of cheat codes to sprinkle into my planning.
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I had no idea he would cause a major shift in my thinking around how I approach my goals.
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So, jennifer, sister, I appreciate you, girl, thank you for going out there and sharing that note with me.
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So when you send me a note, make a comment on one of my posts.
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It doesn't have to be good, it could be anything.
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If it stinks, let me know what stinks.
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That gives me the opportunity to celebrate you in the future.
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So share with your people.
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Leave some stars, leave some comments, because I need the attention.
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Leave some stars, leave some comments because I need the attention.
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At some point in my career I was a state employee.
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Yes, so everyone picture it right.
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Yeah 2000, whatever.
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So I was a state employee and as a state employee I am a rule follower, and I attended a sexual harassment training along with two to 300 of my colleagues my fellow state employee colleagues and it was clear we were all in an auditorium.
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It was clear that the institution invested some money to bring in a speaker.
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Well, I'm looking around.
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I was by myself, but I was looking around and people are asleep.
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This was when Candy Crush was a thing.
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They're on their cell phones playing games, they're having side conversations right, and I want your listeners to imagine you've been in that situation.
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But here's the thing At the same time, that organization was in public litigation around sexual harassment.
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Okay.
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Now you tell me you corralled all the people, so that's an expense.
00:12:03.397 --> 00:12:07.581
Right, we're going to talk about ROI.
00:12:07.581 --> 00:12:10.009
You've taken people from their job, so that is an expense.
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You've paid to have a speaker on a topic that clearly you're presenting on because something else has happened.
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That's an expense.
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That's an expense.
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But you are in public litigation for a problem that you're attempting to solve right now it's not making sense, as the young people say, make it make sense for me, so it's.
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It is another example of creating a training that is performative.
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A training that is performative it's not addressing the issue in any shape or form and you are still not meeting your KPI and you're not getting a return on investment.
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So that's just a story that I often share.
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I don't name names to protect others, but I have also made mistakes.
00:13:07.033 --> 00:13:17.518
When I got into this, my career started in health care, as a not certified athletic trainer, so I worked clinically, but then, when I left that, I entered education.
00:13:17.518 --> 00:13:24.667
Oh, it's a no wonder those students graduated those undergrads.
00:13:24.667 --> 00:13:30.105
Let me tell you, jesse, like shame on me, I'm embarrassed, right, like even moment I'm embarrassed.
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But it's okay that people make mistakes like that.
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That is the part of it, right, it's okay to make mistakes.
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The key is you learn from the mistake.
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Don't be like that organization continuing to do the same thing over and over again oh, it's, you said, perfect word.
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It's performative, it's about optics.
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It's so that we can say we did and mitigate our liability for something that we're reacting to yes, and it's you're wasting time interacting to yes, and it's you're wasting time Organizationally.
00:14:07.666 --> 00:14:14.414
Now, personally, I think the equivalent of that is I read 52 books in a year.
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Okay, so you read a book a week and what the hell did you do with the information?
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What was the purpose?
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What was the through line of all the content that you were consuming?
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And we do these things.
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For me, it's about optics, it's about vanity, it's about being able to say look what I did, rather than this is what I contributed.
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And I think, and we're going to get to this, but I think that totally ties to mission and values and this sort of really strategic thinking that couples with the training.
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But before we get there, I've done this and I want to share this because it's helped me help executives understand the fun that they bring to the table with their unrealistic expectations.
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So I was presenting to a group of vice presidents from the central region and I had my space on the agenda.
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What was buzzing around, and this was back when I had a real job.
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This was years ago.
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I don't have a real job now.
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And so the buzz was man, and it was huge.
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It was this training the people that went to it.
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They called it the brainwash thing.
00:15:26.671 --> 00:15:33.129
It got people excited, it was good stuff, but it was a whole week, right, it was a whole week of super, super intense all day training.
00:15:33.129 --> 00:15:35.341
It was awesome for me, maybe not for everybody.
00:15:35.422 --> 00:15:41.764
Anyways, the buzz was Jesse, we're sending these people to this training, we're taking them offline to go to the thing.
00:15:41.764 --> 00:15:45.133
It's a whole week and they're not experts at it.
00:15:45.133 --> 00:15:48.047
It's still wonky and clunky and right Like.
00:15:48.047 --> 00:15:50.653
They still like what the hell is the point of this training if they're not?
00:15:50.653 --> 00:15:52.802
That's OK, I hear you, I hear you.
00:15:52.802 --> 00:16:04.448
So what I did on my little report out piece on the agenda is OK, everybody stand up, I'm going to teach you the basic bachata steps.
00:16:04.448 --> 00:16:12.388
So if you're, I'm into Latin dancing right, and bachata is easy One, two, three, yep, one, two, three, left right.
00:16:12.388 --> 00:16:13.149
One, two, three.
00:16:13.149 --> 00:16:14.092
One, two, three, it's easy.
00:16:14.092 --> 00:16:18.831
So I walk them through the base and they're like what in the world is this fool doing, come on.
00:16:18.831 --> 00:16:27.283
So they got up and they did it, and and that's okay, we're gonna play some music.
00:16:27.303 --> 00:16:28.447
All right, let's do it to the beach.
00:16:28.447 --> 00:16:29.429
It was less than five minutes, all right.
00:16:29.429 --> 00:16:32.160
Now I did my my report out and uh, and then at the end, it's okay, so I've picked one.
00:16:32.160 --> 00:16:41.945
I said executive number one please run us through summary, a review of what you were trained on before we did.
00:16:41.945 --> 00:16:48.283
Before I did my report out and and he's like bro, I don't I remember one, two, three, but I don't.
00:16:48.283 --> 00:16:51.379
Like I was like, oh, so you're not ready to be an expert and train people?
00:16:51.379 --> 00:16:52.341
Well, no, it's okay.
00:16:52.341 --> 00:16:55.288
Executive number two how about you?
00:16:55.288 --> 00:16:58.000
I saw you, you were in the rhythm, like you got it.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:02.951
She said, jess, like I'm not ready to teach Like I would practice alone.
00:17:02.951 --> 00:17:08.623
I said, okay, ready to teach like I would practice alone.
00:17:08.623 --> 00:17:15.102
I said, okay, this is exactly the same situation that you're imposing on people after going to training and expecting them to be expert level teachers of it.
00:17:15.102 --> 00:17:16.224
What do you think about that?
00:17:16.305 --> 00:17:17.207
Say, it again.
00:17:17.207 --> 00:17:20.181
Say it again For the people in the back, jesse.
00:17:20.181 --> 00:17:21.382
Say it again.
00:17:22.523 --> 00:17:31.982
Say it again, so you can guess I wasn't very popular after that, but I made some progress with some of them.
00:17:31.982 --> 00:17:33.807
Okay, we understand what you're saying.
00:17:33.807 --> 00:17:35.612
How do we bridge that gap?
00:17:35.612 --> 00:17:52.619
I'm like that's the question, here's the idea, here's the support, the follow-up support to like the intensive now they have some context, some some vocabulary, some awareness, but we need some follow-up support on actual deployment and doing and what to expect and so forth.
00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:54.482
Absolutely yeah.
00:17:56.526 --> 00:17:57.487
You know what, jesse?
00:17:57.487 --> 00:18:01.333
You got it, whatever.
00:18:01.432 --> 00:18:03.096
You don't need it, you got it.
00:18:06.339 --> 00:18:06.619
Eat whatever.
00:18:06.619 --> 00:18:07.000
You don't need it.
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:08.123
You got it Honestly and that's what I tell people.
00:18:08.123 --> 00:18:08.443
It's not about.
00:18:08.443 --> 00:18:10.027
I mean it is, but it's not really.
00:18:10.027 --> 00:18:13.113
The focus shouldn't be on the content.
00:18:13.113 --> 00:18:15.221
The content, that's not it.
00:18:15.221 --> 00:18:19.090
Where people get it wrong is they don't focus on the people.
00:18:19.090 --> 00:18:20.252
That's the first thing.
00:18:20.252 --> 00:18:27.141
Even if they focus on the people and they got the content, it often stops there, to your point.
00:18:27.141 --> 00:18:28.502
It stops right there.
00:18:28.502 --> 00:18:37.882
What they don't do is follow it through and work on confidence, competence, application.
00:18:37.882 --> 00:18:49.807
Once you can move people through to that point exactly what you were saying you got to get them to where they're confident and competent to do the thing.
00:18:49.807 --> 00:18:51.048
That's it.
00:18:51.048 --> 00:19:00.795
But if we take it at a high level, jesse, that's all about vision and strategy and that's not where people want to sit right now.
00:19:00.795 --> 00:19:13.492
People want to go and do those things, but they don't want to take time and sit in a conference room and say, okay, just, fellow decision makers, we need a strategy around this.
00:19:14.259 --> 00:19:22.726
Okay, so I know that's a super deep subject and we already poked at it twice, but for the L&M family members out there, what's the starter kit?
00:19:22.726 --> 00:19:25.912
What do you need to be not doing?
00:19:25.912 --> 00:19:33.011
How do people need to be thinking about this session, this strategy session around?
00:19:33.011 --> 00:19:33.993
What's the strategy?
00:19:33.993 --> 00:19:40.561
What's the alignment with the business and the intended or targeted outcome of training and development?
00:19:40.561 --> 00:19:48.382
You got any easy pointers that you see folks miss or overlook, take for granted all the time.
00:19:49.203 --> 00:19:54.294
Okay, I do, but before I get there, jesse, you have an invitation to my dinner table.
00:19:54.294 --> 00:19:56.411
My husband and I would love to have you for dinner.
00:19:56.411 --> 00:20:01.144
I'm just going to say it because the conversation Okay, I love food.
00:20:01.344 --> 00:20:01.984
I love food.
00:20:01.984 --> 00:20:10.296
Okay, so, and the reason I extend the invitation is because you want to get deep and you want to have the deep conversations and I love it.
00:20:10.296 --> 00:20:18.326
So my recommendation for leaders who are saying, okay, let's do this strategy, here's some things to think about.
00:20:18.326 --> 00:20:22.887
Think about your organizational vision and mission.
00:20:22.887 --> 00:20:24.471
That's the first thing.
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What does it say?
00:20:26.987 --> 00:20:38.075
If, at any point, you have a point about the people in it, that vision needs to be in your strategy.
00:20:38.075 --> 00:20:40.824
That vision needs to be a part of your training as well.
00:20:40.824 --> 00:20:57.104
If in your vision, it says community, the stories around community training that is built on community learning and learning, hoops and social learning, communities of practice, that needs to be in it.
00:20:57.104 --> 00:21:07.041
So and I could go on and on but I would say the first thing to start thinking about is what does our vision, our corporate organizational vision, say?
00:21:07.041 --> 00:21:13.521
What does it say and is it reflected in our training as a whole and in our existing strategy, if you have one?
00:21:13.521 --> 00:21:14.826
That's the first thing.
00:21:15.508 --> 00:21:16.932
Yeah, that's the first thing.
00:21:17.539 --> 00:21:19.484
It's gigantic and the reason I say it's gigantic for two reasons.
00:21:19.484 --> 00:21:22.913
And like anybody outside of the construction industry, I'm not talking about you because that's not for two reasons.
00:21:22.913 --> 00:21:27.589
And like anybody outside of the construction industry, I'm not talking about you because that's not where I swim.
00:21:27.589 --> 00:21:43.890
But in the construction industry I know tons of organizations that either don't have a clear vision, mission, values, which that's not bad, because my money says the majority of businesses out there don't.
00:21:43.890 --> 00:21:45.993
But hey, you're making it right.
00:21:45.993 --> 00:21:47.766
Don't let any fool start a business.
00:21:47.766 --> 00:21:48.628
I'm proof of that.
00:21:51.020 --> 00:21:51.844
If you want to have.
00:21:52.605 --> 00:22:00.608
I guess what I'm hearing is when you want to amplify the investment of training and development, where to start is vision, mission values.
00:22:01.682 --> 00:22:05.229
Yeah, and that's it, and it's not creating them.
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